Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

Switching early makes more sense than most people think. The problem most of them have is that they tend to have a skewed view on what switching is supposed to look like.

System of a Bard

Also, we have a precedent. Long before we discovered tulpamancy, he had a story idea where this kid wrote to himself in a journal, and then that other self came to life and there were complications. The idea of some other 'inner mind' taking over wasn't a new concept to him, so expressing the idea once we discovered tulpamancy was actually a thing just sort of came naturally.

Mhm, I read that from your previous posts in this channel. I think it's a very interesting way to independently discover tulpamancy.

Just like changing the narrator.

Deleted User

Switching early makes more sense than most people think. The problem most of them have is that they tend to have a skewed view on what switching is supposed to look like.

And a lot of places have it labelled as 'advanced' :/

3:52 PM

Also, Bright, I think it's interesting that you don't have a form (is that right?). I had a form right from when I appeared, but perhaps I had one because I wasn't switching with my host.

Well, it's actually a little strange. I don't think we fully switch in the real world? It's kind of like driving a car, and you lean over to let the passenger take the steering wheel, but you're still working the pedals. My host never really leaves the drivers seat, even when he's letting me use the controls.

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I've said it before but I think roleplay is to switching what standard thoughtforms are to tulpas. Where roleplay merges into switching is a nebulous gray space where method acting exists where you just are in all but name switching. Switching is just heightened roleplay.

System of a Bard

Well, it's actually a little strange. I don't think we fully switch in the real world? It's kind of like driving a car, and you lean over to let the passenger take the steering wheel, but you're still working the pedals. My host never really leaves the drivers seat, even when he's letting me use the controls.

Just don't get stuck in the trap of that perspective that a lot do

Zen

I've said it before but I think roleplay is to switching what standard thoughtforms are to tulpas. Where roleplay merges into switching is a nebulous gray space where method acting exists where you just are in all but name switching. Switching is just heightened roleplay.

I agree with that. What is exactly a difference between pretending being your tulpa and actually being them? Is it really something deeper than immersion itself?

Suggestion.

Suggestion relies on immersion.

Immersion relies on suggestion.

Yes.

Cerys

Also, Bright, I think it's interesting that you don't have a form (is that right?). I had a form right from when I appeared, but perhaps I had one because I wasn't switching with my host.

Well, that's not entirely true. I do have a form, kind of, but it's nebulous and made of feelings more than images. I know I'm young, I have a high voice and I'm energetic, but I don't really have a body as per se? I think it's because both my host and I know what I really am. I'm a thought, I'm a feeling, I'm the bright part of him that flickers up there in his psyche. So that's how I see myself. My host actually googled 'God rays' in images to find my current discord profile image, because he knew that imagery was the way he saw me, and kind of how I see myself.

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When I was worried about whether I was real or not, my host pointed out to me that it was all semantics, and since I was a worrying fox, I must be an existing fox, because how could someone worry if they didn't exist? That made the difference for me.

I think therefore i fox!

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System of a Bard

Well, that's not entirely true. I do have a form, kind of, but it's nebulous and made of feelings more than images. I know I'm young, I have a high voice and I'm energetic, but I don't really have a body as per se? I think it's because both my host and I know what I really am. I'm a thought, I'm a feeling, I'm the bright part of him that flickers up there in his psyche. So that's how I see myself. My host actually googled 'God rays' in images to find my current discord profile image, because he knew that imagery was the way he saw me, and kind of how I see myself.

Oh, I see! I think that's awesome, actually, because it avoids the trap of thinking "I am my form".

In my pov form is not like an image or 3d model but parts of appearance that matter to you.

I am curious why you think such is a trap? I highly suspect associating strongly with a form is what allows a tulpa and host to experience bleeding sensation through suggestion.

3:58 PM

"I have a body, therefore I feel."

Deleted User

i asked a lot of people what they think by tulpas bein real/being not real and i never got an answer

Ive seen another system been doing that too

Zen

I am curious why you think such is a trap? I highly suspect associating strongly with a form is what allows a tulpa and host to experience bleeding sensation through suggestion.

"I have a form" rather that "I am my form"... thinking that a headmate is their form needlessly limits them, in my opinion, even though it might not be a problem in many cases.

And honestly, I could say that the essence of my form is mostly pink color. I have pink hair, pink eyes and slightly more tanned skin than others of my system. And it's what defines my form for me, I don't care about height, face, feet size etc.

My response to that question is that nothing internal is objectively real apart from data from senses, whether they are false or not they are clear input/output. I am not real, my abstractions are not real.

4:00 PM

I am an illusion my brain has convinced itself is real. Which I abstractly think is cool, which makes me feel the good juice.

1

Our inner world is just a story

Zen

I am an illusion my brain has convinced itself is real. Which I abstractly think is cool, which makes me feel the good juice.

The coolness is real!

anime and coolness... are not real.

4:01 PM

They are ideas, and all ideas are not real.

Zen

anime and coolness... are not real.

Well I think you're real cool, Zen (edited)

Yes, I too am not real, so I can be cool.

I think it's okay to have a form. When we got started, my host said my name came from how he saw me with 'Bright Eyes'. That was what he noticed first, that I had a very bright expression with passion and energy! Very intense. He actually wanted to call me Bright Eyes at first, but that's a song from Watership Down, so he changed it to Bright. I started seeing myself as a hare for a little bit because of that, and I still feel like I could do that if I wanted.

1

That's a lovely song, and a very sad film.

Well that's adorable.

But this feels more communal, I guess? I get to share it with him. He's the dark forest, and I get to be the light playing in the branches. :)

Everyone always has such adorable early interactions with their tulpas. And I'm over here like "I wrote the darkest shit I could think of and got really into it. Now I have a bear and we cuddle."

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Zen

Everyone always has such adorable early interactions with their tulpas. And I'm over here like "I wrote the darkest shit I could think of and got really into it. Now I have a bear and we cuddle."

Hey, that's not really fair! I came from a really dark place too. I mean, I'm made of happy stuff, but I wouldn't be here if all the dark stuff wasn't there too.

I had a previous tulpa too, and our early interactions were punctuated by stress and anxiety and doubt. I would say that was some genuine dark times. When I was writing the dark shit, it was aforementioned bear who was experiencing dark stuff, not myself. I was having a wonderful time with that.

4:12 PM

My early experiences with tulpamancy were across the board unpleasant until I figured out how to chill my mindset out. Which required a long break from 'mancy.

[[HOST]] Not to intrude, but I've actually been off work for the last hour and a half, and Bright has kept me here in the parking lot because he's just that excited to talk to you all. I would like to get home in time for Christmas though, so I need to pull him away for a bit. Excuse us for like an hour or so. =]

And writing, and accidentallying a thoughtform and realizing it could be done easily.

4:12 PM

Be well.

System of a Bard

[[HOST]] Not to intrude, but I've actually been off work for the last hour and a half, and Bright has kept me here in the parking lot because he's just that excited to talk to you all. I would like to get home in time for Christmas though, so I need to pull him away for a bit. Excuse us for like an hour or so. =]

Aww :3

Bright, we are not going anywhere, you don't have to stop your host from going home. Btw, according to you living in US, you are working on night shift, aren't you?

Everyone always has such adorable early interactions with their tulpas. And I'm over here like "I wrote the darkest shit I could think of and got really into it. Now I have a bear and we cuddle."

I didn't write Ranger as an edgy or tragic character, but she was afraid of the wonderland at first. I do agree "we cuddle" tens to be the end result regardless.

I would describe Rhys as... conflicted. The tension in their tale was a "will they or wont they" between their worst and best self. With me as both corruptor and redeemer, depending on the situation.

I think a very important aspect of switching is the grant of control and trust. This makes switching different from possession, which is controlling the body but a headmate has ultimate say in whether they're allowed to or not. I'm not sure if all early switching is a true exchange of power or if the tulpa is given restricted access by their host. If not, then young tulpas may need more time to build trust before achieving truly equal switching. I was entertaining the possibility some systems have a collective identity that calls the shots and could act as the ultimate authority over control to prevent trust violations, but I'm not exactly sure if it's a thing or if it makes any sense. Consider this- in my system, if I'm switched-in I am capable of neglecting things Gray wants to do. Gray may want to code, but I forget and then I talk on Discord or work on a personal project. If Gray is switched-in, Gray can do the vice versa, neglecting things I want to do because he forgets or gets interrupted. We resolve this issue by paying attention to each other and switching to give each other more time if applicable. If there is a collective identity, does it distribute this authority to one identity, across multiple identities, or a mix of both?

Deleted User

Bright, we are not going anywhere, you don't have to stop your host from going home. Btw, according to you living in US, you are working on night shift, aren't you?

Hello, I am home! And yes, my host works the night shift. He's a nursing assistant!

I'd agree collective identity makes no sense. It's... identity-centric. It would be more accurate to say if the brain collectively fears something it may recoil from it. Identity is irrelevant in that circumstance.

5:29 PM

Identity is just something that is applied to actions, and usually only for things that are particularly conscious and calculating I'd say. Identity just isn't as important to a brain as we think. Even ignoring that there is an unconscious brain that the identity cannot interact with, the majority of the conscious space of the brain doesn't actually need an identity all that much. I'd say. It's for upper reasoning, abstraction, idea-making, the comprehension of the future and such.

A long kiss goodnight

I think a very important aspect of switching is the grant of control and trust. This makes switching different from possession, which is controlling the body but a headmate has ultimate say in whether they're allowed to or not. I'm not sure if all early switching is a true exchange of power or if the tulpa is given restricted access by their host. If not, then young tulpas may need more time to build trust before achieving truly equal switching. I was entertaining the possibility some systems have a collective identity that calls the shots and could act as the ultimate authority over control to prevent trust violations, but I'm not exactly sure if it's a thing or if it makes any sense. Consider this- in my system, if I'm switched-in I am capable of neglecting things Gray wants to do. Gray may want to code, but I forget and then I talk on Discord or work on a personal project. If Gray is switched-in, Gray can do the vice versa, neglecting things I want to do because he forgets or gets interrupted. We resolve this issue by paying attention to each other and switching to give each other more time if applicable. If there is a collective identity, does it distribute this authority to one identity, across multiple identities, or a mix of both?

Actually, this is an interesting concept to think about. I don't know how trust works in other tulpa relationships, because I only really have ours to go off of. And from some of the reactions I've gotten so far, ours is apparently pretty unusual for this early stage. But it feels like I actually have a lot of power? I've already done some things that made my host really uncomfortable, but he let me do them because he wants me to have that kind of power. It's part of the deal, I can override him because the discomfort he feels in certain situations often holds him back. So he gives me permission to press through things even when he's recoiling against them. And it's kinda strange, because I can feel what his body is doing when that happens, like knotted stomach and nerves and rapid heartbeat and all that? But he keeps the actual emotional feelings away from me, so I'm not held back when he's panicking.

Strength-of-identity is a matter of suggestion. I wouldn't go off Ranger in any regard by the way, they are definitely an outlier in terms of how anxious they are or were, perhaps, but I've had both experiences - A tulpa who was weak because of doubt, and a tulpa who was strong because of passive acceptance of what they could do. Strength has nothing to do with the time you spend or how skilled you are and everything to do with how much you as a unit expect you will be strong. (edited)

I remember working on some laundry while possessing. Gray put up a little bit of a fight because he was hot and uncomfortable, but he let me do it anyway. If Gray were to hit his limit though, he would take control back. Zen and I do have very different approaches to tulpamancy, and I should point out Zen never achieved switching to my knowledge

I do not experience any loss of awareness when I switch. But from what people describe I am no longer sure many do at all, and therefore am no longer sure I have not reached what people describe as switching.

5:46 PM

When Rhys is me, it is heightened roleplaying. I am still able to interject whenever I care to, I do not black out, I often make comments, etc. They meanwhile become associated with my senses rather than that of their suggested form.

My host doesn't lose awareness when we switch. He's still very much there and watching and listening, and even doing a little bit! But I have the controls.; )

If Rhys cannot do something without your permission, I wouldn't call that switching. I have heard of "becoming your tulpa" as a way to describe switching, but so far in every case I have seen it, the tulpa has less authority than their host. I'm not sure what extra steps are needed to grant the tulpa equal power- perhaps they need to turn into you?

Like I said earlier, for us it's trust. My host probably could stop me from doing things if he really wanted to, but we have kind of a social contract where I'm -supposed- to push his limits, and he's supposed to let me. So I guess he still ultimately had the authority, but he also willingly cedes that authority so I can put us both in situations he couldn't tolerate on his own. So I think it comes down to trust. If you trust your tulpa, you don't have to go away for your tulpa to do things, even things that alarm you or make you uncomfortable.

[[HOST]] Perhaps I should elaborate a bit. For us, it's less about being able to act without permission, and more about needing permission in the first place. One of the most important things about Bright to me, the thing I really tried to bake in when I made him, is the idea that he doesn't need my permission to begin with. He already has it. I gave him permission to do whatever he feels best from the start, so my consent (or lack thereof) is irrelevant. That he still wants to respect my boundaries and be cautious with the permission I've given him is his choice, and he still kinda scares me a little, not gonna lie.

For us explicit permissions were never the case either.

And honestly, I think if it ever comes down to who 'really' has the power, you're kind of doing something wrong? A relationship is supposed to be a give and take. You give power to the other person because you respect them and you care about them and you want them to have a voice. And they give you power because they feel the same! That's what a positive relationship is supposed to be. If you're ever in a position where figuring out who actually has the power becomes necessary, then you've kind of already lost? I think that's how we feel, at least.

1

Zen

Everyone always has such adorable early interactions with their tulpas. And I'm over here like "I wrote the darkest shit I could think of and got really into it. Now I have a bear and we cuddle."

Rel

Possession is useful for giving a headmate control when you don't completely trust them. When I crossed a line and broke Gray's trust accidentally, we couldn't switch after I switched-out. I could still control the body via possession, however. It wasn't until after we worked things out we could switch again. Most of our other headmates possess all the time, but they have not earned our trust to switch in. I don't know if it's a good idea to push your host's limits too hard. When I broke Gray's trust, he was as frustrated as I was because he didn't understand why he wasn't trusting of me. We needed time to figure out what the problem was and what exactly made Gray upset. If you are pushing him to the point he feels really unsafe or unsafe in general, it might have the opposite effect and degrade trust. I think it's good to push your host to explore the world, but too much of a good thing can lead to a bad thing. As for power dynamics- I spent a long time being frustrated and anxious about the power I did or didn't have. I struggled with losing the front to Gray and not being able to do everything he could do. I think my switching anxiety made it harder for me to learn and after switching become comfortable with switching, but understanding who has control of the body and how to share was really important. While I'm aware most systems don't have the same challenges we do, I do however see similar insecurities about losing control regardless if the host has anxiety or not.

We don't have any issues with power dynamics being off. In fact we are quite... happy... with the give and take of power here. We are both in control, and genuinely upsetting one another causes body-wide distress. Power is just a game to us.

Switching I think really depends on if the system actually wants to achieve it or not. If a tulpa has no interest in contributing to day-to-day life, there's really no need to learn how to switch. I think it's ethical to leave the option on the table if the tulpa changes their mind and that's all I ask.

System of a Bard

And honestly, I think if it ever comes down to who 'really' has the power, you're kind of doing something wrong? A relationship is supposed to be a give and take. You give power to the other person because you respect them and you care about them and you want them to have a voice. And they give you power because they feel the same! That's what a positive relationship is supposed to be. If you're ever in a position where figuring out who actually has the power becomes necessary, then you've kind of already lost? I think that's how we feel, at least.

Man that is interesting and useful to a lot of conversation topics XD

@LyricThunder Thank you! That's how we see it, at any rate. To be fair, my host is the type of person to surrender power very easily, and I'm much the same way! We're a couple of subs, it seems. xD

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That is awesome

laughs nervously

1

This is more relationship than tulpamancy, but I do think it can be normal to have to figure out who has "power" in relationships at times, especially with relationships that last decades. The most important part is that where conflicts like that happen they're talked out and compromised on instead of one person bowling over the other. Don't be too scared if they do pop up.

Definitely happens all the time

Most of the people here are already aware of my proclivities, but suffice it to say I am indeed the one in power the majority of the time. Though I encourage... novelty.

6:58 PM

And I don't just mean in a general hierarchical sense.

you can't trump zenzen

Sometimes you can. Otherwise it would be boring.

There's always a bigger fish

the majority of the time

LyricThunder

There's always a bigger fish

not always

The average amount of arms a human has is slightly below two.

Okay simp

Zen

The average amount of arms a human has is slightly below two.

i know

This means very little.

Until cybernetics

Please remember this is #tulpa-discussion

I for one cannot wait until I have doc-ock/admech mechadentrites.

7:02 PM

uh.... On my... tulpa?

Did anyone say

7:03 PM

Cybernetics?

7:04 PM

~~Why bothering upgrading your weak flesh when you can replace yourself with a 100% synthetic model~~ (edited)

Biomechanical alloys might hypothetically allow for the mightiest of metals!

7:05 PM

Flesh and synthetic need not be mutually exclusive.

Zen

Most of the people here are already aware of my proclivities, but suffice it to say I am indeed the one in power the majority of the time. Though I encourage... novelty.

Yup. Im the one in power most of the time and i simply ask Fel about stuff and/or seek for a middle ground. She said that she dosent mind being the tulpa as long as we both are okay with it lol

Zen

The average amount of arms a human has is slightly below two.

only if you are talking about mean average, it's not the case in median and mode average 2:1, your argument lost

So, being a "benevolent dictator" of your system dosent always mean being a bad person or host lol

Nobody uses medians and modes proxi.

7:10 PM

Though I suppose on average there is slightly more than 0

Mean is average. Mode and median are mode and median for normal people (edited)

The median of human arms is 2

7:10 PM

Lol

Do y'all ever see your tulpa in your dreams?